On the Governmental View and Gethsemane

"From another Group, here are  a number of answers to a question to explain the Governmental View of the Atonement

Barry, in the governmental view the chief ends to be accomplished pertain to Law. There is one Eternal Law - Love, or benevolence which summarized from scripture is universal good-willing. 

Romans 13:8-10 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. 

That's Paul summary of the Law and the Prophets after the fashion of the Lord Jesus. And you know what He said about the first and greatest commandment (or law) and the second one which is like unto it. 

The Law of benevolent disposition and practice of the first and second kind is binding on angel and man alike. That is God's own philosophy of life, universal good-willing. Or said differently, 'God is Love.' 

Preamble to say again, the primary issues for the forgiveness of sins are: 

To demonstrate God's righteousness at the present time, so he can be seen as Just and the One who justifies the repentant - in that He is suspending 'the soul that sins against Me, he shall die. And if you 'die in your sins as Jesus said, well then, you are exempting your self from forgiveness. 

The heart of the Gospel is for God (who so loved the world) to be able to show hat He is not a respecter of persons, that He demands benevolence (as opposed to selfishness, or the Me first life) from all moral beings and will not compromise on it, for He himself lives by it. 

In order to accomplish that (Satan is not even mentioned) he set forth Jesus, His only and beloved Son as a Propitiation (appeasing or expiating the force of law, or its punishment -symbolized by the Mercy Seat in the OT) through his blood (=life, tasting death for every man) 'to declare his righteousness for passing over, or remission of sins (the execution of the violated law) in time past (which cost a great tax on His forebearance) so that He could 'forgive freely by His philanthropy and kindness (that is Grace). 

Satan, is an incidental to the big issues. Jesus was 'undoing the works of the devil, in binding the strong man' all through his earthly life. Satan had noting in Jesus to accuse the Father of 'favoritism'. In so doing Jesus delivered people who were willfully under the domination of the unseen Prince and power of the air, from the fear of death. 

Satan has been leading mankind into selfishness to spite God, and prove that his 'philosophy of life' brings real blessing and happiness. Job is the great harbinger of THE test for benevolent choosing. Satan what trying to get Jesus to step out from under submission to the Father (based on the premeis that God really doesn't desire the best for us, our true happiness and blessedness). That is what Satan was trying to do. But John tells us the darkness could not overcome the light, indeed he can't even comprehend any more the notion of true benevolence. Benevolence will delight in humbling itself and take on suffering to deliver others for their own sake. He does not get that. 

When it says the wisdom that the rulers of this world, and its Prince did not comprehend the hidden wisdom, it was as simple as that. Love wins through loosing (and don't tag me with Rob Bell, please). 

The dispensation of the Law and its economy was to teach law, holiness, and that on condition of Great suffering (not disclosed what it was in full) sin *may* be forgiven. For a very long time that disposition was the only way to reconciliation. The tutor of Israel was preparing them and the world for Rom. 3: 22-26. 

There was no 'deal with Satan before the world.' The one passage you cited as Lewis's banner must yield to the broader and more concise teaching of law and God's government.

Before Jesus walks the last gauntlet:

" Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence." (Joh 14:30-31)

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (Joh 16:33 KJV)

Satan is in defeat mode - now he must stop Jesus somehow from getting to his goal - nearly killed him in Gethsemane

i'll give some scripture and some reasons why I believe that.  

Part I.

Recall that Jesus said 'the Prince of this world is coming' in Jn. 14:30 and later he said 'this is your hour and the power of darkness' when the deputation from the High Priest accosted him in Gethsemane. But even before at the meal Satan had entered into Judas after he had taken the sop from Jesus and then went out. Satan was very active at that time, clamoring to have Peter so that he could 'Job-out' on him. 

So, Jesus acknowledged that Satan had already been 'near by' and yet after the supper He said he was coming suggesting a fuller force assault.

But as he entered Gethsemane ...

"Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder. And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, *My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death*: tarry ye here, and watch with me. (Mat 26:36-38)

"he bagan to grieve and be distressed"
ἤρξατο λυπεῖσθαι καὶ ἀδημονεῖν.

"my soul is exceeding sorrowful even to death"
περίλυπός ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου ἕως θανάτου· 

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Mar 14:33-34 he began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death:

"sore amazed, and to be very heavy"
ἤρξατο ἐκθαμβεῖσθαι καὶ ἀδημονεῖν 

"My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death:"
- same as Matthew -

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Luke 22:41-45 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

Part II Synoptic Reading of Gethsemane rare as hen's teeth. 

I don't know if the same torpor comes over Biblical readers when trying to understrand the rigors our Savior encountered in Gethsemane as the Apostles for sorrow or it has already been concluded that Jesus 'had his moment of doubt and pain' and as the 'temporarily_non_Good_Shepherd' contemplated leaving the sheep when trouble comes. 

I am going on record as saying 'if you do not study the Life of Christ synoptically' you probably have more fatalistic presuppositions about life than you realize or maybe your heart is not moved by it. 

If you do not study the Gethsemane experience synoptically you will most certainly misrepresent the account as a result. 

In this part I'm going to give some of the definitions of the Greek words Jesus is recorded as saying about his experience to include case analysis. The Greek has precision that English cannot reproduce easily or succinctly. So there is real value in becoming conversant with it so that you can get the full counsel of the Holy Spirit in the language He chose to permanently emboss the record of eternal salvation for the world. 

|----- Matt -----|
Sorrowful: 3076 λυπέω lupeo {loo-peh'-o} 
Meaning: 1) to make sorrowful 2) to affect with sadness, cause grief, to throw into sorrow 3) to grieve, offend 4) to make one uneasy, cause him a scruple [pres. pass. inf]

Distressed: 85 ἀδημονέω ademoneo {ad-ay-mon-eh'-o} Meaning: 1) to be troubled, great distress or anguish, depressed 4036 περίλυπος perilupos {per-il'-oo-pos} Meaning: 1) very sad, exceedingly sorrowful 2) overcome with sorrow so much as to cause one's death 

Exceeding Sorrowful: 4036 περίλυπος perilupos {per-il'-oo-pos} Meaning: 1) very sad, exceedingly sorrowful 2) overcome with sorrow so much as to cause one's death 
Origin: from 4012 and 3077; TDNT - 4:323,540; adj
Usage: AV - exceeding sorrowful 2, very sorrowful 2, exceeding sorry 1; 5

|-----Mark-----|
1568 ἐκθαμβέω ekthambeo {ek-tham-beh'-o} 
Meaning: 1) to throw into terror or amazement 1a) to alarm thoroughly, to terrify 2) to be struck with amazement 2a) to be thoroughly amazed, astounded 2b) to be struck with terror 
Origin: from 1569; TDNT - 3:4,*; v
Usage: AV - be affrighted 2, sore amazed 1, greatly amazed 1; 4

Even if you don't know any Greek you can match the words used by symbol matching. 

- see Part III - 

Part III - A challenge. I realize that I've put forward a lot of information, and there is plenty more to show. But I'm not going to. It's enough to suggest the kind of research that serious students of Scripture should do in this area especially (not that I think I'm the only one to have done it justice, but I know from experience most have not) . Also, it may give you a tingling sensation in the small of your noggin that someone else may have uncovered material that you have not considered before. And then again maybe not. 

But it should be clear that a lot of work has gone into my conclusions and I'll just say what I have come to right out loud and without a commensurate level of Scriptural and exegetical support. 

If you have a heart, then let it set on the Lord Jesus as he explains in his own word what He said he was hurting him. 

The words that Jesus used as recorded and preserved for us by the Holy Spirit should break your heart. Those words above by Jesus are not hyperbole or the remnants of idiomatic archaisms from the Kings English. 

They are terrifying in their import and gravity. There are in the mood and voice in the Greek that show He was suddenly and thoroughly overcome by external oppression mentally. 

The words 'deeply grieved', 'sorrowful', and 'sore amazed' are like iceberg tips that are not at all revelatory of their true portent. Matthew and Mark's account have a word difference that is either epexegetical or are aspects of the same experience but shades of difference. 

This condition was so great HE said it was killing him. That's right, that's what 'unto death' means does it not. Why do we read such passages and think no further than to ascribe some kind of selfish apprehension of pain or ill to himself in these experiences?

When Jesus fell on his face and asked the Father to take the cup away from him, most think to fasten fear on his heart that he was praying (like nobody has ever prayed before) to avoid the Atonement. Just for a little bit. 

My reply to that is, have we come no further in knowing him than that? Jesus said if we have seen him we have seen the Father. That does not comport with a pain shirking ethos that some believe motivated him. You need to see the incongruity of those two mind sets. 

I say, it was the hour and the power of darkness, just like he said, and that he was under the sore oppression Satanic suggestion that he feared in His humanity that he would die there in the Garden before He could accomplish his exodus in the plan of the Father. 

Does it matter exegetically that Mark uses the word 'hour' instead of cup that Jesus was praying to be delivered from? 

A suggestion to enable the credibility of understanding how Satan could exert 'force at a distance' consider Daniel. Recall that when he was given to see these horrific visions of the conflict of the great waters that are fomented by Satanic agency, and the various goats and rams that moved in such power that their feet did not touch the ground. 

"Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.
10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands."(Dan 10:8-10 KJV)

Do we really understand the spiritual dimension well enough to discount their application and weight upon Jesus as a possible source of His sorrow? We are not told what was on the other side of His holy visage in that experience but just that it was so awful that according to His own testimony, it nearly killed him. 

Before you tell the world that your Savior was pulling back from the service of love to the Father, have a heart will you and consider an alternative."

source: W Scott Taylor (from a .txt document posted in the “Moral Government Theology” facebook group).

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